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	<title>Comments for Davar Akher</title>
	<atom:link href="http://benabuya.com/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://benabuya.com</link>
	<description>looking for alternative explanations</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:21:13 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Homosexuality and Witchcraft by Daniel Lipman Lowbeer</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2012/02/19/homosexuality-and-witchcraft/#comment-9183</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel Lipman Lowbeer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=1915#comment-9183</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Think about it: &quot;Warlock&quot;. &quot;Wedlock&quot;. I rest my case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Think about it: &#8220;Warlock&#8221;. &#8220;Wedlock&#8221;. I rest my case.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;The Lord is my Shepherd&#8221;: Interpreting Psalm 23 by Shirley</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2008/07/14/the-lord-is-my-shepherd-interpreting-psalm-23/#comment-9181</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shirley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 04:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deba.wordpress.com/?p=385#comment-9181</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[wow.... and I wanted to just be a sheep in God&#039;s Fold.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow&#8230;. and I wanted to just be a sheep in God&#8217;s Fold.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Earth&#8217;s Most Customer-Centric Company by Gabe</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2011/10/12/earths-most-customer-centric-company/#comment-9152</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gabe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=1609#comment-9152</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You purchase from Amazon UK right? Because it has free shipping to Australia with a sufficiently large purchase. I just heard this on my last trip to Sydney.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You purchase from Amazon UK right? Because it has free shipping to Australia with a sufficiently large purchase. I just heard this on my last trip to Sydney.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;These Lights&#8221; by Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2011/12/20/these-lights/#comment-9131</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Holloway]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2012 07:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=1871#comment-9131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you, Derek: I was not familiar with that reference!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Derek: I was not familiar with that reference!</p>
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		<title>Comment on On Liberation and Contempt: The Origin of a Nasty Myth by Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2011/12/22/on-liberation-and-contempt-the-origin-of-a-nasty-myth/#comment-9130</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Holloway]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2012 07:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=1897#comment-9130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you: corrected.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you: corrected.</p>
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		<title>Comment on On Liberation and Contempt: The Origin of a Nasty Myth by apothaneinthelo2011</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2011/12/22/on-liberation-and-contempt-the-origin-of-a-nasty-myth/#comment-9118</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[apothaneinthelo2011]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2011 00:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=1897#comment-9118</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great post. By the way it is Virgil (Aeneid II, 49), not Homer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. By the way it is Virgil (Aeneid II, 49), not Homer.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Memory and Analysis by Raf</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2011/12/19/memory-and-analysis/#comment-9111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Raf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2011 16:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deba.wordpress.com/?p=1844#comment-9111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello S - In response to your comment about the tradition of Indian mistrust of written texts, there are many parallels in Jewish culture. It is not at all clear that the Mishnah (the earliest rabbinic code of law) was written down at the time of its redaction, and it was certainly transmitted orally and committed to memory. The Talmud itself was a memorised dialectic analysis, and it was studied orally in the Babylonian academies well into the medieval period. There is even evidence that the Babylonian Talmud was transmitted to Spain orally and then fixed in a written text (this is discussed briefly in an article by Shlomo Morag in a volume entitled &quot;The Sephardic Heritage&quot; - I don&#039;t recall the title of the article but it&#039;s about the Hebrew linguistic traditions of medieval Spain). There are also Geonim (post-Talmudic authorities) who chided scholars in other communities for using written texts to study the Talmud, which they considered to be easily susceptible to corruption. This changed over the centuries, but the value of memorisation and internalisation of texts remained central.

It&#039;s interesting to note that the Vilna Gaon&#039;s attitude towards memorisation and virtuosic analysis was not what one might expect from someone who knew &quot;the entire Torah by heart the way that you know Ashrei (Psalm 145 - traditionally recited thrice daily), and backwards.&quot; (That description is either in Ma&#039;aseh Rav or Orhot Hayyim, I can&#039;t remember which.) Firstly, he was adamantly against the kind of pilpul that Simon describes, stressing a breadth of learning in foundational texts rather than complex conceptual analysis. His instruction for daily Talmud study (only one part of the regimen he prescribed) was just to focus on the passage itself, with Rashi&#039;s commentary, and preferably but not necessarily (&quot;lo le&#039;ikkuva&quot;) the Tosafot. He said that one should revise each passage until one knows it well - &quot;nearly by heart&quot; but not by heart. But it is good to memorise at least one tractate so that if one gets stuck without books one can still study. (I believe this is all in Ma&#039;aseh Rav.) This is actually far from the emphasis on memorisation that was prevalent in Eastern European Jewish circles at the time, with an emphasis on breadth education over intellectual games or performance. 

There was at least one prominent opponent of the culture of memorisation in the medieval Islamic world, where it was (and remains) absolutely routine for children to commit the Quran to memory, and an educated member of society traditionally memorised far more. In an educational treatise that he wrote, al-Jahiz (8th-9th century Iraq) stated that people with creative minds &quot;hate&quot; memorisation as a technique, and he praises writing as a gift from God. A very similar attitude can be seen in the writings of the 11th century Jewish scholar and poet, Isaac Ibn Ghiyyat, who stresses the value of texts in educating whole societies as opposed to privileged individuals - as long as you can read, you don&#039;t need to travel far and be a member of the inner circles of a great master in order to access ideas and information. I raise these examples just because it&#039;s interesting to note that the problems that we might identify with these cultural practices have long been noted within those cultures themselves.

On a more personal note, it seems to me that despite the less creative element in memorisation, there is a lot to be gained from these practices. During my time in yeshiva and afterwards, I met quite a number of scholars who knew a tremendous amount of material by heart. Some of them were wonderfully creative thinkers - and not as performance, but with true profundity. When I compare that world with my own primary and secondary education (in academically selective public schools in Australia), I must say that I am saddened that we were never encouraged to &quot;know lots of stuff&quot;. The value was entirely placed on creativity and process, and then on performance in entry exams or final assessments. And did we really learn critical thinking? I&#039;m not so sure. Did most of us emerge broadly conversant in the sources of Western culture? Certainly not. Maybe it&#039;s time to find a synthesis between these approaches.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello S &#8211; In response to your comment about the tradition of Indian mistrust of written texts, there are many parallels in Jewish culture. It is not at all clear that the Mishnah (the earliest rabbinic code of law) was written down at the time of its redaction, and it was certainly transmitted orally and committed to memory. The Talmud itself was a memorised dialectic analysis, and it was studied orally in the Babylonian academies well into the medieval period. There is even evidence that the Babylonian Talmud was transmitted to Spain orally and then fixed in a written text (this is discussed briefly in an article by Shlomo Morag in a volume entitled &#8220;The Sephardic Heritage&#8221; &#8211; I don&#8217;t recall the title of the article but it&#8217;s about the Hebrew linguistic traditions of medieval Spain). There are also Geonim (post-Talmudic authorities) who chided scholars in other communities for using written texts to study the Talmud, which they considered to be easily susceptible to corruption. This changed over the centuries, but the value of memorisation and internalisation of texts remained central.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting to note that the Vilna Gaon&#8217;s attitude towards memorisation and virtuosic analysis was not what one might expect from someone who knew &#8220;the entire Torah by heart the way that you know Ashrei (Psalm 145 &#8211; traditionally recited thrice daily), and backwards.&#8221; (That description is either in Ma&#8217;aseh Rav or Orhot Hayyim, I can&#8217;t remember which.) Firstly, he was adamantly against the kind of pilpul that Simon describes, stressing a breadth of learning in foundational texts rather than complex conceptual analysis. His instruction for daily Talmud study (only one part of the regimen he prescribed) was just to focus on the passage itself, with Rashi&#8217;s commentary, and preferably but not necessarily (&#8220;lo le&#8217;ikkuva&#8221;) the Tosafot. He said that one should revise each passage until one knows it well &#8211; &#8220;nearly by heart&#8221; but not by heart. But it is good to memorise at least one tractate so that if one gets stuck without books one can still study. (I believe this is all in Ma&#8217;aseh Rav.) This is actually far from the emphasis on memorisation that was prevalent in Eastern European Jewish circles at the time, with an emphasis on breadth education over intellectual games or performance. </p>
<p>There was at least one prominent opponent of the culture of memorisation in the medieval Islamic world, where it was (and remains) absolutely routine for children to commit the Quran to memory, and an educated member of society traditionally memorised far more. In an educational treatise that he wrote, al-Jahiz (8th-9th century Iraq) stated that people with creative minds &#8220;hate&#8221; memorisation as a technique, and he praises writing as a gift from God. A very similar attitude can be seen in the writings of the 11th century Jewish scholar and poet, Isaac Ibn Ghiyyat, who stresses the value of texts in educating whole societies as opposed to privileged individuals &#8211; as long as you can read, you don&#8217;t need to travel far and be a member of the inner circles of a great master in order to access ideas and information. I raise these examples just because it&#8217;s interesting to note that the problems that we might identify with these cultural practices have long been noted within those cultures themselves.</p>
<p>On a more personal note, it seems to me that despite the less creative element in memorisation, there is a lot to be gained from these practices. During my time in yeshiva and afterwards, I met quite a number of scholars who knew a tremendous amount of material by heart. Some of them were wonderfully creative thinkers &#8211; and not as performance, but with true profundity. When I compare that world with my own primary and secondary education (in academically selective public schools in Australia), I must say that I am saddened that we were never encouraged to &#8220;know lots of stuff&#8221;. The value was entirely placed on creativity and process, and then on performance in entry exams or final assessments. And did we really learn critical thinking? I&#8217;m not so sure. Did most of us emerge broadly conversant in the sources of Western culture? Certainly not. Maybe it&#8217;s time to find a synthesis between these approaches.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;These Lights&#8221; by Derek Leman</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2011/12/20/these-lights/#comment-9106</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Derek Leman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 12:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=1871#comment-9106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You said: &quot;Whether or not it appears within Christian Bibles depends entirely upon the denomination of Christianity...&quot;

I&#039;m curious if you felt John 10:22 did not qualify or if it is simply that this reference did not occur to you: &quot;At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter . . . &quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You said: &#8220;Whether or not it appears within Christian Bibles depends entirely upon the denomination of Christianity&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious if you felt John 10:22 did not qualify or if it is simply that this reference did not occur to you: &#8220;At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter . . . &#8220;</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230; and a Happy New Year by Rabbi Joseph Karo and the Kabbalah &#171; Menachem Mendel</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2011/12/23/and-a-happy-new-year/#comment-9097</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rabbi Joseph Karo and the Kabbalah &#171; Menachem Mendel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 04:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=1907#comment-9097</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] At Text and Texture Rabbi Shlomo Brody has a very nice post about &#8220;Rabbi Joseph Karo&#8217;s Shulchan Aruch and Magid Mesharim.&#8221; (hat tip) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] At Text and Texture Rabbi Shlomo Brody has a very nice post about &#8220;Rabbi Joseph Karo&#8217;s Shulchan Aruch and Magid Mesharim.&#8221; (hat tip) [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on On Liberation and Contempt: The Origin of a Nasty Myth by Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2011/12/22/on-liberation-and-contempt-the-origin-of-a-nasty-myth/#comment-9095</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Holloway]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=1897#comment-9095</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kastner suffered a great deal, it would seem, for his decisions. Others too, whose names are too many to recount. I was particularly interested to discover the connection between him and Hannah Szenes, which I glossed over here but plan on revisiting. Nowadays, there&#039;s a lot more respect for such people, and a greater understanding of the difficulties they faced. At the time of Kastner&#039;s trial, people still knew very little about such things, and it was easy to lump all collaboraters into the same group.

In fact, Hilberg (whose three-volume study is a masterpiece) devotes a lot of time to the individual Judenraete of different countries, and it&#039;s interesting to see how they differed. While some really earned the contempt that they were to receive for their actions, there were a lot of good people too, whose complicity was made without knowledge of where it would lead and which resulted in their own demise as well - occasionally at their own hands.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kastner suffered a great deal, it would seem, for his decisions. Others too, whose names are too many to recount. I was particularly interested to discover the connection between him and Hannah Szenes, which I glossed over here but plan on revisiting. Nowadays, there&#8217;s a lot more respect for such people, and a greater understanding of the difficulties they faced. At the time of Kastner&#8217;s trial, people still knew very little about such things, and it was easy to lump all collaboraters into the same group.</p>
<p>In fact, Hilberg (whose three-volume study is a masterpiece) devotes a lot of time to the individual Judenraete of different countries, and it&#8217;s interesting to see how they differed. While some really earned the contempt that they were to receive for their actions, there were a lot of good people too, whose complicity was made without knowledge of where it would lead and which resulted in their own demise as well &#8211; occasionally at their own hands.</p>
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