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	<title>Comments on: Praise the Lord (of the Rings)</title>
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	<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/</link>
	<description>looking for alternative explanations</description>
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		<title>By: Lue-Yee Tsang</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comment-8053</link>
		<dc:creator>Lue-Yee Tsang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=679#comment-8053</guid>
		<description>On the other hand, &lt;em&gt;It has come to my attention&lt;/em&gt; comes to mind. Still, Tolkien’s rendering has a nice robustness to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the other hand, <em>It has come to my attention</em> comes to mind. Still, Tolkien’s rendering has a nice robustness to it.</p>
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		<title>By: ariel</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comment-8049</link>
		<dc:creator>ariel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 23:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>We&#039;ll have to agree to disagree on clarification/negation. Especially since I believe that the Jewish clarification was based on an Oral Tradtion from Moses and the heads of the Tribes and not simply made up out of convenience...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ll have to agree to disagree on clarification/negation. Especially since I believe that the Jewish clarification was based on an Oral Tradtion from Moses and the heads of the Tribes and not simply made up out of convenience&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comment-8048</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 05:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=679#comment-8048</guid>
		<description>&#039;Fraid I don&#039;t really understand, Ariel. Firstly, the Torah never says that Amalek lopped off the penises of the Israelite men: that&#039;s a midrash, based upon the root of a particular verb in the narrative. Secondly, your assertion that Amalek does not exist &quot;in any quantifiable sense&quot; is also of rabbinic extraction. Believe me, Amalek exists in a &lt;i&gt;very&lt;/i&gt; real sense within the Tanakh. Furthermore, the author of Samuel certainly presupposed that the Biblical injunction to wipe them out was to be taken literally, and has Saul divested of kingship for failing to do so.

Finally, I think that the distinction between negation and clarification is semantic. If the end result is a Biblical law that cannot be put into practise, what difference does it make? Jews negated undesirable laws by reinterpreting them in such a way that they either meant something else, or that they could no longer be put into effect; Christians negated the same laws by applying a particular theological hermeneutic that informed them of the text&#039;s obsolete status. Both are very different approaches that reflect on very different attitudes to the same corpus of literature, but the end result of both of them is not so different as you might like to suppose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Fraid I don&#8217;t really understand, Ariel. Firstly, the Torah never says that Amalek lopped off the penises of the Israelite men: that&#8217;s a midrash, based upon the root of a particular verb in the narrative. Secondly, your assertion that Amalek does not exist &#8220;in any quantifiable sense&#8221; is also of rabbinic extraction. Believe me, Amalek exists in a <i>very</i> real sense within the Tanakh. Furthermore, the author of Samuel certainly presupposed that the Biblical injunction to wipe them out was to be taken literally, and has Saul divested of kingship for failing to do so.</p>
<p>Finally, I think that the distinction between negation and clarification is semantic. If the end result is a Biblical law that cannot be put into practise, what difference does it make? Jews negated undesirable laws by reinterpreting them in such a way that they either meant something else, or that they could no longer be put into effect; Christians negated the same laws by applying a particular theological hermeneutic that informed them of the text&#8217;s obsolete status. Both are very different approaches that reflect on very different attitudes to the same corpus of literature, but the end result of both of them is not so different as you might like to suppose.</p>
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		<title>By: ariel</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comment-8047</link>
		<dc:creator>ariel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 05:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=679#comment-8047</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe that religious Jews dismiss precepts. On top of the commandments which you give, there is a commandment to wipe out Amalek. Or is there?
The commandment is to erase the &lt;I&gt;memory&lt;/I&gt; of Amalek, whatever that means. Also, I wouldn&#039;t stand outside my synagogue asking passers-by if they are Amalekites and if they answer in the affirmative to then stab them to death and lop off their private parts as they are said to have done to Bnei Yisrael in the &lt;I&gt;midbar&lt;/I&gt;. The reason for this is twofold:
a) I am a lover, not a fighter
b) Amalek does not exist in any quantifiable sense

Another favourite is the commandment to kill a child who strikes his parent/s. Rabbi Akiva interpreted &quot;strike&quot; in such a severe way as to make it impossible for a child to inflict one.

As you say at the end, I would call this clarification rather than negation. It appears that Paul was very much into negation, even though Jesus can be said to have been the first advocate of &lt;I&gt;mivtza&#039;im&lt;/I&gt; - encouraging fellow Jews to keep the Biblical ordinances, but to carry out the message of the prophets: be nice to each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe that religious Jews dismiss precepts. On top of the commandments which you give, there is a commandment to wipe out Amalek. Or is there?<br />
The commandment is to erase the <i>memory</i> of Amalek, whatever that means. Also, I wouldn&#8217;t stand outside my synagogue asking passers-by if they are Amalekites and if they answer in the affirmative to then stab them to death and lop off their private parts as they are said to have done to Bnei Yisrael in the <i>midbar</i>. The reason for this is twofold:<br />
a) I am a lover, not a fighter<br />
b) Amalek does not exist in any quantifiable sense</p>
<p>Another favourite is the commandment to kill a child who strikes his parent/s. Rabbi Akiva interpreted &#8220;strike&#8221; in such a severe way as to make it impossible for a child to inflict one.</p>
<p>As you say at the end, I would call this clarification rather than negation. It appears that Paul was very much into negation, even though Jesus can be said to have been the first advocate of <i>mivtza&#8217;im</i> &#8211; encouraging fellow Jews to keep the Biblical ordinances, but to carry out the message of the prophets: be nice to each other.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comment-8046</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 04:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=679#comment-8046</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good question, Ariel, and thank you. I&#039;ll have to leave it to a religious Christian to answer you, but my two cents for what they&#039;re worth:

Religious Jews also hold to the inerrancy of scripture, yet forgo many of its precepts. They either do this by reinterpreting them (cf: &lt;i&gt;the monetary value of&lt;/i&gt; an eye for an eye, etc) or by dismissing them altogether (eg: a rebellious city never existed and never will). For a religious Christian, scripture also includes the writings of Paul, according to which, God subjected himself to human law in order that subsequent generations of people need not do so. I imagine that I may now get a lot of people telling me that I&#039;m wrong but, as I see it, Judaism modifies or abrogates the law on the basis of the Mishna, Tosefta and Talmudic literature, while Christianity does the same, on the basis of the Gospels, Pauline epistles, and the writings of the church fathers.

That Judaism retains more of the Biblical law than does Christianity is a matter best left to historical anthropologists to explain but, for my part, I&#039;m pleased that both religions found a means of sifting out or &quot;clarifying&quot; the really nasty bits! Kashrut, Shabbat and Tzitzit, I can live with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good question, Ariel, and thank you. I&#8217;ll have to leave it to a religious Christian to answer you, but my two cents for what they&#8217;re worth:</p>
<p>Religious Jews also hold to the inerrancy of scripture, yet forgo many of its precepts. They either do this by reinterpreting them (cf: <i>the monetary value of</i> an eye for an eye, etc) or by dismissing them altogether (eg: a rebellious city never existed and never will). For a religious Christian, scripture also includes the writings of Paul, according to which, God subjected himself to human law in order that subsequent generations of people need not do so. I imagine that I may now get a lot of people telling me that I&#8217;m wrong but, as I see it, Judaism modifies or abrogates the law on the basis of the Mishna, Tosefta and Talmudic literature, while Christianity does the same, on the basis of the Gospels, Pauline epistles, and the writings of the church fathers.</p>
<p>That Judaism retains more of the Biblical law than does Christianity is a matter best left to historical anthropologists to explain but, for my part, I&#8217;m pleased that both religions found a means of sifting out or &#8220;clarifying&#8221; the really nasty bits! Kashrut, Shabbat and Tzitzit, I can live with.</p>
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		<title>By: ariel</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comment-8045</link>
		<dc:creator>ariel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 04:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=679#comment-8045</guid>
		<description>I really enjoyed reading this post.
I also feel that Dynamic Equivalence is often necessary with translating most texts. (This irks me re foreign films, lehavdil, where subtitle authors often neglect to translate idiomatically, usually due to them having learnt one or both of the languages formally rather than being native speakers of either or both).
I also agree with Simon that I prefer a translation to err on the side of formality.

Re the Catholic hold on Biblical inerrancy: Why then don&#039;t they hold its instructions? For if they did, they would not eat certain animals, they would not extinguish or ignite a flame on the Sabbath (Saturday, not Sunday) and they would wear fringes on their four-cornered garments, etc. just like their messiah did and advocated (I suspect this is a topic for another day, though...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed reading this post.<br />
I also feel that Dynamic Equivalence is often necessary with translating most texts. (This irks me re foreign films, lehavdil, where subtitle authors often neglect to translate idiomatically, usually due to them having learnt one or both of the languages formally rather than being native speakers of either or both).<br />
I also agree with Simon that I prefer a translation to err on the side of formality.</p>
<p>Re the Catholic hold on Biblical inerrancy: Why then don&#8217;t they hold its instructions? For if they did, they would not eat certain animals, they would not extinguish or ignite a flame on the Sabbath (Saturday, not Sunday) and they would wear fringes on their four-cornered garments, etc. just like their messiah did and advocated (I suspect this is a topic for another day, though&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Brant</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comment-8044</link>
		<dc:creator>Brant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=679#comment-8044</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Tim for clarifying the Roman Catholic position on inerrancy. It is a bit more nuanced than the usual, Evangelical take on inerrancy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Tim for clarifying the Roman Catholic position on inerrancy. It is a bit more nuanced than the usual, Evangelical take on inerrancy.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comment-8043</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 09:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for the nice post on Tolkein and the Jerusalem Bible.  Just a couple of points:

1) There are other editions out there of the JB, including a newly released CTS New Catholic Bible which is published in Britain and includes the Jerusalem Bible translation, minus the JB Psalms which is the Grail Translation, and the lack of the use of YHWH.  It comes in various editions: http://www.cts-online.org.uk/acatalog/info_SC103.html

2) Also, the Catholic Church does hold to Biblical innerancy.  It is a bit more layered but the most recent statement about it comes from the Second Vatican Council document Dei Verbum 11: &quot;Since, therefore, all that the inspired authors, or sacred writers, affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error, teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scripture. &quot;  There has been a debate as to how far that goes, but that is the basic statement from the Catholic Chuch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the nice post on Tolkein and the Jerusalem Bible.  Just a couple of points:</p>
<p>1) There are other editions out there of the JB, including a newly released CTS New Catholic Bible which is published in Britain and includes the Jerusalem Bible translation, minus the JB Psalms which is the Grail Translation, and the lack of the use of YHWH.  It comes in various editions: <a href="http://www.cts-online.org.uk/acatalog/info_SC103.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cts-online.org.uk/acatalog/info_SC103.html</a></p>
<p>2) Also, the Catholic Church does hold to Biblical innerancy.  It is a bit more layered but the most recent statement about it comes from the Second Vatican Council document Dei Verbum 11: &#8220;Since, therefore, all that the inspired authors, or sacred writers, affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error, teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scripture. &#8221;  There has been a debate as to how far that goes, but that is the basic statement from the Catholic Chuch.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comment-8042</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=679#comment-8042</guid>
		<description>Simon, when I commented I hadn&#039;t actually seen John&#039;s rendering. I have now. Well, it certainly gets the attention and most people would understand it as hyperbole - although I&#039;m sure some literalistic fundies would start discussing how Nineveh could have been 600 miles east to west and 500 miles north to south, or however big Texas actually is. It wouldn&#039;t work well here in the UK as we are not so used to the idiom, and might have to measure Texas from an atlas (as I just did, roughly). It&#039;s the sort of rendering which would work in a version like The Message or the Cotton Patch Bible (better than The Message&#039;s untypically prosaic &quot;it took three days to walk across it&quot;). But I can&#039;t see it being acceptable in a general purpose translation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon, when I commented I hadn&#8217;t actually seen John&#8217;s rendering. I have now. Well, it certainly gets the attention and most people would understand it as hyperbole &#8211; although I&#8217;m sure some literalistic fundies would start discussing how Nineveh could have been 600 miles east to west and 500 miles north to south, or however big Texas actually is. It wouldn&#8217;t work well here in the UK as we are not so used to the idiom, and might have to measure Texas from an atlas (as I just did, roughly). It&#8217;s the sort of rendering which would work in a version like The Message or the Cotton Patch Bible (better than The Message&#8217;s untypically prosaic &#8220;it took three days to walk across it&#8221;). But I can&#8217;t see it being acceptable in a general purpose translation.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2009/09/26/praise-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comment-8041</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 04:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benabuya.com/?p=679#comment-8041</guid>
		<description>This TNIV translation of Jon 3:3 &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; more to my taste, although I appreciate John&#039;s functional concerns - and especially John&#039;s functional translation, on his own post. In many respects, I think this highlights the different applications of a translation. The Committee for Bible Translation (and I apologise: I thought that they are Zondervan were one and the same) aims at reproducing the Bible in another language. In other words, they aim at presenting a text that can serve as &lt;i&gt;the&lt;/i&gt; Bible for a group of people. Their translation, therefore, should be more functionally equivalent, and less rigid in its rendering of the Hebrew and Greek.

For those who, like myself, ultimately prefer to be reading the Bible in Hebrew, but who also enjoy having an English translation on side as a commentary to the text, a less dynamic equivalence is preferable. I like to know how the translators have rendered individual words into English and, even though I think that a measure of dynamism is crucial for translating collocations, I prefer my translations, if they have to err, to do so on the side of formalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This TNIV translation of Jon 3:3 <i>is</i> more to my taste, although I appreciate John&#8217;s functional concerns &#8211; and especially John&#8217;s functional translation, on his own post. In many respects, I think this highlights the different applications of a translation. The Committee for Bible Translation (and I apologise: I thought that they are Zondervan were one and the same) aims at reproducing the Bible in another language. In other words, they aim at presenting a text that can serve as <i>the</i> Bible for a group of people. Their translation, therefore, should be more functionally equivalent, and less rigid in its rendering of the Hebrew and Greek.</p>
<p>For those who, like myself, ultimately prefer to be reading the Bible in Hebrew, but who also enjoy having an English translation on side as a commentary to the text, a less dynamic equivalence is preferable. I like to know how the translators have rendered individual words into English and, even though I think that a measure of dynamism is crucial for translating collocations, I prefer my translations, if they have to err, to do so on the side of formalism.</p>
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