I was somewhat embroiled, a short while ago, in an argument that took place in a rather benighted corner of the internet, the name of which I shall leave undisclosed. Posing as a Jew who was interested in conversion, I was pleased to be able to hear the opinions of Muslims in this fair city of mine, and find some common ground despite them not knowing my true identity. For the most part, this was a pleasantly affirming experience: I always suspected that the noisy yahoos were a minority and that when one sits down with reasonable people one will hear reasonable things. My timing, however, was altogether off. It was but a week after I had joined this site when Israel began their invasion of Gaza: an operation that, lest there should be any doubt of their intentions, they dubbed “Cast Lead”.
Those who know me know that I have never automatically defended Israel. I tend to disagree with those who view the Palestinians as the victims of their own leadership, and sympathise more with those who view them as the victims of the often heartless, and frequently brainless, IDF. Nonetheless, I found myself advocating the Israeli position on this particular forum, simply because the prevailing sentiment became only slightly shy of advocating a second Holocaust. So much for the affirming part of my experience. Users whose avatars displayed an Israeli flag with a big, blue swastika in the middle shook virtual hands with those who spoke of wiping Israel off the planet. All manner of individuals, with whom I had previously been having the most civilised of discussions, began to congratulate one another for their right-of-radical views concerning Jews and Judaism, and swapped pictures of dead Palestinian babies with all the fervor of those who collect porn.
Being at a loss to explain their passion for the violent, I tried to soften the tone by stressing the prevailing goodness of Israeli society, and even told them that I had lived there for a couple of years and never once seen anybody frothing at the mouth. I tried to tell them that the people cannot be held altogether responsible for the actions of their government (although I am well aware of the oft-cited sentiment that the Palestinian people may be held responsible for theirs), and even tried to justify the government’s activities, in part, for what they found so despicable. We did not argue long. You see, I do not mind a heated online altercation, or even a passionate discussion in real life, but my sentiments were soon drowned out in a tidal wave of scorn and abuse. Apparantly, the Palestinians have been absolutely blameless in the continual escalation of violence. Apparantly, the Israeli government (correction: the Israeli people) is attempting to implement a policy of genocide. Apparantly, Islam is always and only ever a religion of peace and love. Apparantly, I am an Israeli.
It was no good arguing the point, although I did make a valiant effort to change them on one score. I tried to make clear to them that any comparison with the Nazis can only possibly be made in order to cause the maximum offence. To suggest that the Israelis are the new Nazis, solely on the ground that both Israelis and Nazis are responsible for innocent deaths, is like likening them to rabbits, on the grounds that they are both land-dwelling mammals. History is full of groups who have behaved in such a manner, and yet comparisons with individuals other than the Nazis are yet to be forthcoming. Is it not blindingly obvious that the Israelis are only ever compared to Nazis because the Jews find such a comparison offensive? Seems obvious to me, but it also seems that many of those with whom I had vainly attempted to debate the point were people who could not spell, reason, or (I suspect) dress themselves. My point that the Palestinian cause might also be better served if its uniqueness was stressed fell on deaf ears.
I think that what I found most alarming about the situation was the fact that so many of those people, to whose bloodsoaked tirades I subjected myself, were actually converts to Islam. With no family in Gaza and no real connection to the people there beyond the ideological, they nonetheless worked themselves into a frenzy over the deaths of their “brothers and sisters”. Their ability to empathise with their enemy was childlike, and their advocacy of (what I termed) a “Star Wars universe”, in which the forces of absolute good battle the forces of absolute evil, made their whole cause seem like a joke to me. There was no possibility of dialogue within this forum, despite the moderators’ insistence on it being there, and the only passages of the Qur’an to which I was subjected were of the sort to which I would need to be subjected in such an environment were I to ever bother reading. And yet, even with so poor a beginning, I still expect to engage in some serious dialogue with serious people.
In order for this to happen, I hold out for two possibilities. The first is that the internet brings out the ugly side in everybody. Without being able to see that the person with whom you are arguing is a person like yourself, ganging up on them with hateful tirades and crass insults is a great deal easier. The second possibility is that such forums as the one that I visited, especially once they begin to fill up with narrow-minded bigots, tend to only get frequented by narrow-minded bigots. The rational and sensible individuals with whom a genuine dialogue is to be had are not to be found in such disreputable haunts. That is a more hopeful scenario, and it allows for the possibility of a more positive experience to be had elsewhere, irrespective of the religiosity of the participants. I imagine that this all would be a great deal easier were I to only hold intercourse with the secular in my society, but I am also aware that any paradigm for genuine improvement must necessitate the inclusion of the devout. For my part, however, there is nothing so human as what people put in the mouth of God.
Its excellent to see you back at the keyboard and posting again, Simon! Few things seem to hold my attention the manner in which your personal relfections do…
Your experience in the forum you mentioned I don’t really believe is unique at all. Pick one, any one, and I am certain that you find the ignorant and loud making outrageous statements that cannot be taken seriously! It is not even particular to religious or race related forums, and I bet you could find similarly stupid and insupportable rantings in a conversation between a Ford devotee and a Holden lover. Although more likely in reference to masculinity and not genocide. But no less ignorant.
From my own experience in forums, I have to agree with you that like attracts like. One nut job gabbering about anything will invariably attract like minded nut jobs and amplify the rant. It does tend to scare people off. However I disagree that it is a problem, or characteristic particular to the internet. The internet has probably given many faceless a voice when there was no other accessable forum. It has as much potential as the combined input of individual use allows it to have, and I like to think that here, we counteract the blatantly ignorant with a different voice.
You have more patience and faith than I do. Comments liking Israelis to Nazis is telling of the overall level of stupidity you were dealing with in that forum, and I would not be likely to return it! I know little of the situation in Palestine, but the comment smacks of a desperate need to offend and insult, as you suggest. I say go with the more hopeful option, they are out there…
You know who else invokes Godwin’s Law?! Nazis!
My Dear Good Sir!
What an unpleasant experience, alas, I do not agree with my esteemed friend and Lady of Two Runes. I believe that there is a culture of rudeness that is rife on the internet. I recall many a long and pleasant evening back in the 90’s calling people all manner of insulting things for kicks on MIRC. It’s fun. And cathartic. I strongly urge everyone to at least once in there lives to get down and dirty and attack someone ad hominem just for the hell of it.
The internet is a Roman arena where the gladiators AND the mob are given masks to hide their identity. And then they get to call each other all sorts of names for the fun of it. Is this an internet only affair. I think so. I think it has to do with the lack of consequences, unlike road rage where the person one hangs the bird to could turn around and threaten your life, thus escalating things towards violence, a good ol’ cyber-barny of the lowest form has no consequences other than higher blood pressure and some lost hours better spent doing well…almost anything really.
What’s truly concerning is, that, while I too hold with the opinion that people are generally nicer to others that they meet on the street, I don’t necessarily think it has anything to do with empathy towards suddenly recognizing a fellow human. Alas, I really think that their thoughts are not curbed at all, just their words so as not to spend every moment of their lives fighting with people.
I do believe that if thoughts were audible, you’d be hearing conversations like the ones you just had on the net repeated on the strett, except it would not just be about race religion or territory. It would include heated violent exchanges about Holden’s and Fords, NRL versus AFL, post-modernism versus Romanticism, who should rightfully have this car parking space, and whether Tracy Grimshaw should be kicked in the groin and set on fire or set on fire and THEN kicked in the groin. Utter anarchy would break out over little things AND big things alike. But we avoid this sort of mess by restraining ourselves on a regular basis.
I guess the real question then is, what’s more important, that people’s actions are civil when their thoughts are not, or that their actions are uncivil but honestly so?
The other real question is who has Tracy Grimshaw’s address and does anyone have some methylated spirits…
Ha! You and I may differ as regards our views on Tracy Grimshaw, but I think you make a good point regarding human nature. I would that you were incorrect, yet I suspect that you may have hit the nail on my head. Were I not so fearful of retaliation, might my bottled-up road rage reach internet proportions? Maybe, and that’s a damn shame.
Wow. This is odd. I stumbled upon your blog a long while ago while looking for Bible and bookmarked it. I also frequented the forum that you went to, and had no idea that you were the author of this blog.
You know, I always regretted that you left. You were a nice voice of moderation on the forum. There were and still are some nice people there and in fact, you’re lucky you were on that forum and not others. From my experience, that forum was on the ‘liberal’ side of things. Most Australian Muslims do seem to be pretty chill.
Were those nice comments about Islam a sham? Perhaps you should have entered the forum as just yourself and not as a would-be-convert.
Thank you, Nooj, for your thoughtful comments. I remember your username from the site but, as I’ve not visited it in a long while, you will have to forgive me for not remembering you more specifically. My nice comments were most certainly not a sham: I do possess a beautiful copy of the Qur’an, and I was really teaching myself to read Arabic. I only progressed seven lessons into Lambdin’s grammar, but the intention was an honest one!
I harbour no ill feelings towards Islam as a religion, and I can even understand how (some!) people get caught up in the romanticism of a global Islamic empire. As somebody who once lived as an ultra-Orthodox Jew, I am no stranger to the excitement and grandeur of fervent religion. Nonetheless, as a non-Muslim, I also find the prospect of living in a theocracy to be a frightening one and the contentions of many on that website only solidified that particular opinion.
But this is almost beside the point: the real issue that drove me away from the forum was the unbridled hatred of Israel. It seemed that no matter how many times I assured people that I was neither an Israeli nor a Zionist, their hearts were set on tarring me with the same brush, for no reason other than the fact that I am a Jew. If anything, they made me want to be a Zionist! I could no longer write anything critical of Israel, as they’d somehow convinced me that I was only providing them with further fodder for hating Australian Jews, and – as a result – was pushed into the position of defending them.
There was a Jewish girl on the website when I was there; she went by the name Yehudit. The two of us became friends and it saddened me to note that, while she did enter very much as herself, she was bombarded with hateful messages to a far greater extent than I was. I don’t think that it would have helped, had I identified myself as a Jew who is not interested in leaving Judaism. I think the fact that I identified myself as a Jew at all was the problem.