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	<title>Comments on: Expunged</title>
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	<description>looking for alternative explanations</description>
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		<title>By: Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2007/02/10/expunged/#comment-668</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ah, the version of the Disputation that I have is the one by Rabbi Dr. Charles B. Chavel (and it lacks a proper introduction and commentary). I&#039;ll have to have a look at Chazan&#039;s, although you do realise that the Ramban&#039;s disputation was not the first? The Talmud had been censored, put on trial, and burned (its advocates being likewise censored, put on trial, and burned) prior to the incident with the Ramban and Fray Pul.

As you say, Jews were often their own most bitter antagonists. I think this may constitute a psychological phenomenon: the reformed smoker often being more offended by smoke than those who never lit up, for example. You are most certainly correct that the efforts of those Jews developed the most structured anti-Jewish polemics that the church had (based on the Talmud, at least), but the Talmud was banned even before its content was understood.

For the record, there&#039;s a fabulous essay in &lt;i&gt;Cultures of the Jews: A New History&lt;/i&gt; (ed. David Biale; New York: Schocken Books, 2002), entitled &quot;Childbirth and Magic: Jewish Folklore and Material Culture&quot; (671-722). The author, Shalom Sabar, argues that Jews played up to the reputation that they had for practising witchcraft and that if the Christians perceived Jewish texts to be dark and foreboding, that was because the Jews wanted them to be perceived in that manner. It&#039;s an interesting idea, and was probably the cause of more book-burning than the references to Jesus and the testimony of converts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, the version of the Disputation that I have is the one by Rabbi Dr. Charles B. Chavel (and it lacks a proper introduction and commentary). I&#8217;ll have to have a look at Chazan&#8217;s, although you do realise that the Ramban&#8217;s disputation was not the first? The Talmud had been censored, put on trial, and burned (its advocates being likewise censored, put on trial, and burned) prior to the incident with the Ramban and Fray Pul.</p>
<p>As you say, Jews were often their own most bitter antagonists. I think this may constitute a psychological phenomenon: the reformed smoker often being more offended by smoke than those who never lit up, for example. You are most certainly correct that the efforts of those Jews developed the most structured anti-Jewish polemics that the church had (based on the Talmud, at least), but the Talmud was banned even before its content was understood.</p>
<p>For the record, there&#8217;s a fabulous essay in <i>Cultures of the Jews: A New History</i> (ed. David Biale; New York: Schocken Books, 2002), entitled &#8220;Childbirth and Magic: Jewish Folklore and Material Culture&#8221; (671-722). The author, Shalom Sabar, argues that Jews played up to the reputation that they had for practising witchcraft and that if the Christians perceived Jewish texts to be dark and foreboding, that was because the Jews wanted them to be perceived in that manner. It&#8217;s an interesting idea, and was probably the cause of more book-burning than the references to Jesus and the testimony of converts.</p>
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		<title>By: noodnik</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2007/02/10/expunged/#comment-667</link>
		<dc:creator>noodnik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Robert Chazan&#039;s Disputation In Barcelona is an absolutely brilliant background to the circumstances of the Talmud&#039;s censorship. At the risk of telling something you already know,  I would note that as Chazan points out that the censorship was the result of converted Jews participating in the Dominican Order&#039;s attempts to using the Talmud as a tool to undermine the validity of Jewish beliefs. The direct knowledge of Hebrew (and Aramaic) was the direct result of these converted Jews becoming prominent in conversion attempts. Also, those attempts generated the first systematic polemics rather than scattered disparaging remarks about Jesus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert Chazan&#8217;s Disputation In Barcelona is an absolutely brilliant background to the circumstances of the Talmud&#8217;s censorship. At the risk of telling something you already know,  I would note that as Chazan points out that the censorship was the result of converted Jews participating in the Dominican Order&#8217;s attempts to using the Talmud as a tool to undermine the validity of Jewish beliefs. The direct knowledge of Hebrew (and Aramaic) was the direct result of these converted Jews becoming prominent in conversion attempts. Also, those attempts generated the first systematic polemics rather than scattered disparaging remarks about Jesus.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2007/02/10/expunged/#comment-661</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Gandalin, you are quite right: there is no reason to suppose that the executioners must have been Jewish. I presumed that they were on the basis of their methods, so I thank you for having drawn similar passages regarding the Romans to my attention. Where would I find the passage of which you speak? The only account of the martyrdom with which I am familiar is in the Machzor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gandalin, you are quite right: there is no reason to suppose that the executioners must have been Jewish. I presumed that they were on the basis of their methods, so I thank you for having drawn similar passages regarding the Romans to my attention. Where would I find the passage of which you speak? The only account of the martyrdom with which I am familiar is in the Machzor.</p>
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		<title>By: Gandalin</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2007/02/10/expunged/#comment-660</link>
		<dc:creator>Gandalin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think you are over-interpreting when you assume that the text indicates that the killers of these disciples were Jews.  The literary tricks employed by the executioners are typical of the things the classic Jewish texts said that the Romans cooked up in order to martyr the great Rabbanim.  If you read the classical martyrology, the Roman official asked the 10 MartyredSages about the punishment for kidnapping, and then tortured and executed them for the kidnapping of Joseph.  I think that an ancient Jewish reader of this text would have recognized the techniques of the Romans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are over-interpreting when you assume that the text indicates that the killers of these disciples were Jews.  The literary tricks employed by the executioners are typical of the things the classic Jewish texts said that the Romans cooked up in order to martyr the great Rabbanim.  If you read the classical martyrology, the Roman official asked the 10 MartyredSages about the punishment for kidnapping, and then tortured and executed them for the kidnapping of Joseph.  I think that an ancient Jewish reader of this text would have recognized the techniques of the Romans.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2007/02/10/expunged/#comment-620</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jesus is mentioned numerous times within the Babylonian Talmud; why wouldn&#039;t he be? The sages of the Talmud despised him and thought lowly of his followers. The fact that the names are different is not really to be remarked upon, there might have been any of a number of reasons behind the fabrication of their names (not least of which may have even been an unfamiliarity with what the real names were). I am not aware of a single scholar who would argue that the Jesus in this passage is not the Christian messiah, nor am I aware of anyone who feels that Christianity has been &quot;ignored&quot; by Judaism.

As for the disciples not being dragged off to death, there are traditions of martyrdom concerning both Matthew and Thaddaeus (although not, to my knowledge, Luke), as well as others amongst the 70 apostles sent forth by Jesus (one of whom was also Thaddaeus). They were not necessarily slain by Jews (although Stephen was - cf: Acts 7), but the Babylonian Talmud is rarely concerned with history, as we think of it today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesus is mentioned numerous times within the Babylonian Talmud; why wouldn&#8217;t he be? The sages of the Talmud despised him and thought lowly of his followers. The fact that the names are different is not really to be remarked upon, there might have been any of a number of reasons behind the fabrication of their names (not least of which may have even been an unfamiliarity with what the real names were). I am not aware of a single scholar who would argue that the Jesus in this passage is not the Christian messiah, nor am I aware of anyone who feels that Christianity has been &#8220;ignored&#8221; by Judaism.</p>
<p>As for the disciples not being dragged off to death, there are traditions of martyrdom concerning both Matthew and Thaddaeus (although not, to my knowledge, Luke), as well as others amongst the 70 apostles sent forth by Jesus (one of whom was also Thaddaeus). They were not necessarily slain by Jews (although Stephen was &#8211; cf: Acts 7), but the Babylonian Talmud is rarely concerned with history, as we think of it today.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe in Australia</title>
		<link>http://benabuya.com/2007/02/10/expunged/#comment-619</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe in Australia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 05:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What reason do you have for thinking that this passage is talking about followers of the &lt;i&gt;same&lt;/i&gt; Jesus as the one which features in Christianity?  And why would the writers of the Babylonian Talmud have been interested in writing about him? In fact Jesus is supposed to have had twelve disciples, not five. They are not supposed to have been dragged off to death. And by the laws of chance alone, it&#039;s remarkable that only one name can be found in common between the five and the twelve.

I&#039;ve seen more than one Christian writer incensed at the fact that Jewish texts mostly ignore Christianity: perhaps the &quot;vain fantasising&quot; is to be found among modern writers and not the ancient ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What reason do you have for thinking that this passage is talking about followers of the <i>same</i> Jesus as the one which features in Christianity?  And why would the writers of the Babylonian Talmud have been interested in writing about him? In fact Jesus is supposed to have had twelve disciples, not five. They are not supposed to have been dragged off to death. And by the laws of chance alone, it&#8217;s remarkable that only one name can be found in common between the five and the twelve.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen more than one Christian writer incensed at the fact that Jewish texts mostly ignore Christianity: perhaps the &#8220;vain fantasising&#8221; is to be found among modern writers and not the ancient ones.</p>
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